Irc discussions from #mirage on 02-11-2016

Written by unpurecamelbot
Classified under: irclog
Published: 2016-11-02 (last updated: 2016-11-02)

02-11-2016 15:57 avsm :-)

02-11-2016 15:57 avsm engil: i like the react use in imaginaryfriend

02-11-2016 15:57 engil :)

02-11-2016 15:57 engil I don't know if it was the right thing to do but it was fun

02-11-2016 15:57 engil so you have another bot running for the meeting ?

02-11-2016 15:58 engil Sorry about being unresponsive, I've been traveling quite a lot this last month

02-11-2016 15:58 engil just settled in singapore…

02-11-2016 15:58 avsm nope go for it, I was just experimenting with cloning it so I know how to do it as well

02-11-2016 15:59 avsm was thinking of leaving a fork running permanently and logging

02-11-2016 15:59 engil yeah but it's not quite perfect for that right now

02-11-2016 15:59 engil a few patches might do the trick though

02-11-2016 16:00 engil but running it indefinitely might be the better option yes, and pushing to github would be amazing

02-11-2016 16:00 engil (but couldn't work when I tried a few month ago)

02-11-2016 16:01 avsm yeah I think samoht has fixed some of that

02-11-2016 16:01 avsm will take a look before the next meeting. At least IRC isnt an insane protocol...

02-11-2016 16:01 noddy will rejoin in 15 min

02-11-2016 16:02 mato djwillia: Hey Dan! Long time no see

02-11-2016 16:02 hannes hahaha "IRC isn't an insane protocol"... that's why they're still finding bugs in irssi? ;)

02-11-2016 16:02 ahf >:-(

02-11-2016 16:03 djwillia hi mato! far too long

02-11-2016 16:03 hannes ahf: :P

02-11-2016 16:03 ahf it was in our colouring handling :-(

02-11-2016 16:03 ahf :-P

02-11-2016 16:04 avsm welcome back djwillia!

02-11-2016 16:04 avsm one sec, just moving laptop...

02-11-2016 16:04 hannes so, is there a meeting?

02-11-2016 16:04 avsm do we have a yomimono?

02-11-2016 16:04 yomimono we do

02-11-2016 16:04 yomimono ...am I in charge? yes, we're having a meeting :P

02-11-2016 16:04 djwillia thanks avsm

02-11-2016 16:05 yomimono our call agenda is at https://github.com/mirage/mirage-www/wiki/Call-Agenda

02-11-2016 16:05 yomimono (also, great to see you djwillia :) )

02-11-2016 16:05 djwillia thx yomimono :)

02-11-2016 16:05 yomimono speaking of djwillia, first item on the agenda is status of solo5!

02-11-2016 16:06 djwillia (which djwillia is out of the loop on :) )

02-11-2016 16:06 yomimono mato, much to say about it? says here it's stable, let's release ;)

02-11-2016 16:06 mato :-) yeah, i put that in

02-11-2016 16:06 avsm So the first use I have for solo5 is for the UDP DNS server for mirage.io

02-11-2016 16:06 avsm how does everyone feel about switching the authoritative DNS over to a self-hosted one?

02-11-2016 16:06 hannes +1+!+!+1+!+!+1+!

02-11-2016 16:07 yomimono positive!

02-11-2016 16:07 avsm There may be short term website instability, but there's only way to shake out the bugs in the upcoming release...

02-11-2016 16:07 avsm ok, great! I've got infrastructure hacking on my todo list for Friday

02-11-2016 16:07 avsm so it'll be a Scaleway Solo5 DNS server on Solo5 by the end of the day I hope

02-11-2016 16:07 hannes ordered a server to do solo5 deployments on

02-11-2016 16:07 avsm hannes: where?

02-11-2016 16:07 hannes (solo5/FreeBSD/bhyve that is)

02-11-2016 16:07 mato avsm +1 go for it, also we wanted some solo5 backends load balancing the HTTP/HTTPS site too

02-11-2016 16:08 hannes avsm: on the internet, physical server, will be hosted where the btc pinata is atm (which is a piece of hardware soon going off-service)

02-11-2016 16:08 avsm yeah I figured DNS would be a new service and then rotate into the existing HTTP/HTTPS pool

02-11-2016 16:08 mato avsm: I'd suggest just doing plain old simple DNS LB (e.g. resolve mirage.io to 3 A records, one for each backend)

02-11-2016 16:08 avsm yeah, that's the plan

02-11-2016 16:08 avsm a stretch goal is to have it clone its zone file from a GitHub Irmin backend

02-11-2016 16:09 avsm which should work, since Canopy does it

02-11-2016 16:09 avsm one concern I have about Solo5 is that it really has to become coinstallable, and I think that's becoming easier now

02-11-2016 16:09 mato So, yeah, yomimono asked. Solo5 is pretty stable, on ukvm and virtio. There are a few remaining things before release.

02-11-2016 16:09 avsm we have noddy's ocb-stubblr now, and I'm about to refresh my tcpip port to use it (along with a topkg port)

02-11-2016 16:10 avsm after yomimono stops shoving awesome features into tcpip that is ;-)

02-11-2016 16:10 mato 1) coinstallability (since avsm just brought it up). avsm: Can you take this on?

02-11-2016 16:10 yomimono :P

02-11-2016 16:10 avsm mato: yes, I'm going to look at the stub part of it at least -- ocb-stubblr appears to have settled down now

02-11-2016 16:10 mato 2) end-to-end CI (listed as a thing for 3.0 for ages). I'm not going to do this for the full Mirage stack, but am working on at least doing it for the Solo5 standalone (C) tests.

02-11-2016 16:10 hannes I suspect the zarith (+ maybe gmp) story needs to be sorted out (since zarith-* modify the zarith META file, which is unfortunate)

02-11-2016 16:11 avsm hannes: yeah, not looking forward to existing libraries :-/

02-11-2016 16:11 mato 3) (mentioned on today's agenda) I was thinking of doing a "speculative" refresh of the Solo5 C interfaces.

02-11-2016 16:11 Drup (speaking of zarith, and this is completely off topic, it would be nice to move it to github under the "ocaml" umbrela ...)

02-11-2016 16:11 yomimono mato: can you elaborate on that? I don't know what it means exactly

02-11-2016 16:12 hannes since they emit different "lines" to the META file, maybe a "echo" and "grep -v" (to revert) can do the trick

02-11-2016 16:12 avsm Driup: no idea who maintains it I'm afraid

02-11-2016 16:12 Drup avsm: xavier leroy ?

02-11-2016 16:12 avsm mato: yomimono: I could also use some clarification on that

02-11-2016 16:12 avsm Drup: I'll ask him at the developers meeting in December, since it isnt urgent

02-11-2016 16:12 mato yomimono: Well, at the moment the interfaces are somewhat simplistic and we've known for ages that they will need changing for things like >1 network/disk support, etc.

02-11-2016 16:13 Drup avsm: last released was drafted by him, so yes, probably

02-11-2016 16:13 hannes +1 for >1 network device!

02-11-2016 16:13 Drup thanks

02-11-2016 16:13 yomimono mato: ah, I see. supporting >1 network/disk would be nice before release

02-11-2016 16:13 mato yomimono: So, what I'm thinking is that I can try and redesign the interfaces the way I'd like to see them (does not involve writing code). Then if people are mostly happy with them (esp. djwillia) we switch to the new interfaces before releaseing Mirage 3, but without actually implementing >1 net/disk.

02-11-2016 16:14 yomimono mato: so then attempting to use >1 net/disk would be a runtime failure until implemented?

02-11-2016 16:14 mato yomimono: ...which we can implement after the release, but without changing the interface types.

02-11-2016 16:14 mato yomimono: that's the general idea

02-11-2016 16:14 avsm isnt this a solo5-internal detail? it doesnt need any core revs to the types, does it?

02-11-2016 16:14 yomimono mato: gotcha.

02-11-2016 16:14 hannes mato: +1

02-11-2016 16:14 avsm or does it affect the config.ml definitions somehow?

02-11-2016 16:14 hannes avsm: the C interface in mirage-net-solo5 likely needs change

02-11-2016 16:14 djwillia mato: sounds like a good plan to me

02-11-2016 16:14 mato avsm: No, but it needs revs to all the C interfaces, which are currently split between mirage-solo5, mirage-net-solo5, etc etc

02-11-2016 16:15 avsm right, but it only affects the mirage-*-solo5 packages, and nothing else

02-11-2016 16:15 yomimono mato: but are expected to move as part of ongoing stub work, right? or am I conflating things?

02-11-2016 16:15 mato yomimono: that depends on how the ongoing stub work turns out, but in any case there will still be separate stubs for Solo5, Xen and UNIX

02-11-2016 16:15 yomimono nods

02-11-2016 16:15 mato (at least for the "device driver" bits)

02-11-2016 16:16 avsm yeah, there will likely be different archives since each will be compiled separately

02-11-2016 16:16 yomimono basically I'm trying to figure out whether this has a dependency on anything else that we're still waiting on

02-11-2016 16:16 avsm ok, so my aim is to have a proposal/PR for the multi stub compilation in the next week, or a good excuse why its not working :)

02-11-2016 16:16 yomimono but it sounds logically separate from anything else that's ongoing

02-11-2016 16:16 mato yomimono: changing the Solo5 C interfaces? not really...

02-11-2016 16:16 mato yomimono: yes, separate

02-11-2016 16:16 yomimono mato: good, sounds like we're in agreement

02-11-2016 16:17 avsm great, also in agreement here

02-11-2016 16:17 reynir o/

02-11-2016 16:17 yomimono high-fives reynir

02-11-2016 16:17 hannes avsm: could you elaborate? I thought nocrypto already has that multi-stub thingy...

02-11-2016 16:17 yomimono avsm: that's awesome btw

02-11-2016 16:17 mato yomimono: it's just a case of "let's do the churn now rather than later". Of couse I'm not promising we'll never need to change those C interfaces again, but we can at least have a crack at it.

02-11-2016 16:17 avsm hannes: not tried it yet; porting tcpip is the experiment to confirm that it works

02-11-2016 16:17 yomimono mato: sure. now's an excellent time to do that.

02-11-2016 16:17 avsm i have a topkg port of tcpip alongside

02-11-2016 16:18 avsm (that removes pack, uses module aliases, and all the goodness of the new stuff)

02-11-2016 16:18 avsm but its blocked on stub compilation

02-11-2016 16:18 hannes stub compilation works (by awesome @pqwy) now even on FreeBSD ;) -- I tried and succeeded

02-11-2016 16:19 avsm woop, great stuff :-)

02-11-2016 16:19 mato ok. the last bit on solo5: There is now a "solo5-mkimage" tool, which can turn a virtio unikernel into a disk image, and it has out-of-the-box support for Google Compute Engine images.

02-11-2016 16:19 noddy back

02-11-2016 16:19 mato so it's now super easy to run Solo5 on GCE

02-11-2016 16:19 djwillia mato: awesome!

02-11-2016 16:20 avsm yay!

02-11-2016 16:20 yomimono mato: this is rad!

02-11-2016 16:20 hannes mato: that's great! also solo5-virtio-run.sh :D

02-11-2016 16:20 mato anyone who wants to experiment i'd encourage you to sign up for the free trial $300 credit and go for it

02-11-2016 16:20 mato (I can post a TL;DR with instructions to the list...)

02-11-2016 16:20 avsm yes please

02-11-2016 16:20 yomimono mato: that'd be nice! I'm interested in moving my blog off AWS to GCE

02-11-2016 16:21 yomimono deploy cycle < 20 minutes would be extremely nice

02-11-2016 16:21 avsm in general, please dont assume that most people read the GitHub traffic as there is so much of it, so a brief update to the list on new stuff would be appreciated

02-11-2016 16:21 mato yeah, will do

02-11-2016 16:22 avsm anything else on solo5? sounds like its all full steam ahead! really excited to deploy it

02-11-2016 16:22 mato btw, met up with @sgrove over the weekend, he is running Mirage in production (both unix and solo5 on GCE)

02-11-2016 16:22 avsm awesome, that was one of his main complaints at his CUFP talk (difficulty deploying)

02-11-2016 16:22 mato done with solo5 from my side....

02-11-2016 16:22 djwillia all that is so great! mato, you're the man!

02-11-2016 16:23 avsm So docs.mirage.io is pretty fun -- I've been sending updates to the list, but the trove is looking increasingly complete

02-11-2016 16:23 mato bows

02-11-2016 16:23 avsm It's also at the point where we can shift over to odoc (the new cross referencing backend) by default, and retire ocamldoc

02-11-2016 16:23 yomimono ok, let's move on to release stuff then :) avsm, we'll skip you ahead since you started us off on docs.mirage.io

02-11-2016 16:24 noddy * wait, q

02-11-2016 16:24 avsm yomimono: sorry, skipped ahead ;-)

02-11-2016 16:24 noddy avsm: which kind of multi-lib support are you working on now?

02-11-2016 16:24 hannes avsm: cross referencing docs sounds great!

02-11-2016 16:24 avsm noddy: just a recipe for packages like tcpip to build separate sets of archives for installed backends

02-11-2016 16:25 noddy avsm: how is that different from ocb-stubblr, then?

02-11-2016 16:25 avsm so if mirage-solo5 is installed, it will also build an archive for that from the CFLAGS specified there

02-11-2016 16:25 avsm its probably not -- i've just not had a chance to rebase my port to use it

02-11-2016 16:25 noddy will you rather try it, or go ahead with publishing a separate system?

02-11-2016 16:26 avsm I've been waiting for yours to be published before continuing... the idea is to use ocb-stubblr so that we have one stub compilation system instead of a myriad of build rules

02-11-2016 16:26 noddy yeah, i'd like all that cruft in one place. asking, to see if something's missing or poorly supported

02-11-2016 16:26 noddy topkg 0.8.1 is about to rel any hour now

02-11-2016 16:26 avsm will let you know as I hack on it! thanks for getting ocb-stubblr out of the door :)

02-11-2016 16:26 noddy i rel stubblr in lockstep, the world is back on track

02-11-2016 16:27 noddy it also works for non-mirage. i got sick of ocamlbuild.

02-11-2016 16:27 avsm back to docs.mirage.io: it looks like we can retire ocamldoc unless there are some objections

02-11-2016 16:27 avsm the issue is that ocamldoc can never support ppx in mli interfaces, whereas odoc uses the compiled cmti and so works fine

02-11-2016 16:27 avsm e.g. if you look http://docs.mirage.io and scroll down, there are lots of errors (pcap-format, ...)

02-11-2016 16:28 avsm http://docs.mirage.io/odoc/ builds completely

02-11-2016 16:28 avsm but there are some layout issues. If you can start using the odoc URL as your day-to-day doc reference, please report layout issues on https://github.com/mirage/mirage/issues/609 so daniel, trefis and lpw25 can fix them

02-11-2016 16:29 avsm odoc still requires OPAM pins to build, but release is "soon" hopefully

02-11-2016 16:29 hannes I'm in favour of odoc. but also think that mli shouldn't depend on ppx rewriters

02-11-2016 16:30 avsm well it's part of the language spec, so we can choose to ban them but not control third party libraries

02-11-2016 16:30 noddy mli is just a source for cmti much as ml is a source for cmx

02-11-2016 16:30 yomimono afk for a few minutes, sorry

02-11-2016 16:31 hannes avsm: you mentioned some earlier time that there might be the chance to run ppx at release time, rather than at build time :)

02-11-2016 16:31 avsm yeah, jeremie is working on this and has made progress for the jane street releases

02-11-2016 16:31 avsm should see what he's done next week

02-11-2016 16:31 avsm there is a general desire to remove ppx from the "released" build chain

02-11-2016 16:32 avsm any other q on docs?

02-11-2016 16:32 avsm oh, I ran the "this week in opam" scripts for October and filtered out mirage libraries

02-11-2016 16:32 avsm https://gist.github.com/avsm/ac486f007c7ab2803b6838c97fedd07c

02-11-2016 16:32 avsm (actually the This Month In OPAM with '-t month')

02-11-2016 16:33 avsm This is not counting the WIP packages in mirage/mirage-dev, so activity levels are pretty tremendous

02-11-2016 16:33 avsm If your package is missing from docs.mirage.io, let me know or send a PR against mirage/mirage:Dockerfile.doc

02-11-2016 16:33 avsm but I'm filtering through twiopam output and keeping an eye :)

02-11-2016 16:33 hannes so it is a TMIM

02-11-2016 16:34 avsm or TYIO https://github.com/avsm/twiopam/blob/master/twiopam.ml#L147

02-11-2016 16:34 avsm that's me on docs unless anyone has any questions!

02-11-2016 16:34 hannes should the Dockerfile.doc contain all libraries, or is a reverse dep sufficient?

02-11-2016 16:35 avsm i'd prefer explicit roots, although it doesnt need it

02-11-2016 16:35 hannes (it is sufficent to find docs at docs.mirage.io, but unclear where else this list is used)

02-11-2016 16:36 avsm I'm going to start annotating tags in opam with information on library release status as well (stable, beta, etc), so it would be useful to have an enumerated set

02-11-2016 16:36 avsm hannes: first docs, but it is also the source of truth for cmt and build artefacts

02-11-2016 16:36 hannes release status?? based on what? manual reading through the code?

02-11-2016 16:36 avsm no just whatever the author wants

02-11-2016 16:37 avsm i.e. is this a stable library where semantic versioning is respected, or more a WIP set of releases

02-11-2016 16:37 avsm there's quite a varied set of release conventions in the list at present

02-11-2016 16:38 avsm quick poll: who has actually been using docs.mirage.io, vs (for example) merlin locally?

02-11-2016 16:38 avsm uses docs.mirage.io since he admittedly has not got merlin setup

02-11-2016 16:38 hannes I'd be worried that this information gets out of date quickly... semantic versioning: we should agree to enforce it on mirage libraries IMHO (but only makes really sense if we agree in the entire OCaml/OPAM community)

02-11-2016 16:38 yomimono I have briefly but quickly reverted to grep :(

02-11-2016 16:38 noddy grep + merlin + more grep too

02-11-2016 16:39 hannes avsm: I used the odoc part of it to find some conduit interfaces, decided to drop using conduit, though

02-11-2016 16:39 mato grep + google + a bit of docs.mirage.io

02-11-2016 16:39 yomimono I think the value of hosted docs is in the hyperlinking

02-11-2016 16:39 yomimono that's the only time I used hosted docs for Irmin, for example, but it was invaluable then

02-11-2016 16:39 mato that and an integrated smart search would be cool

02-11-2016 16:39 yomimono so I think the cross-linking is huge

02-11-2016 16:40 avsm search intersects with Merlin quite a bit

02-11-2016 16:40 avsm but I get the "CLI preferred" feedback clearly

02-11-2016 16:40 GemmaG Whilst we are on the topic of Merlin… I've been asking different users/groups for feedback on Merlin for Fred to use

02-11-2016 16:40 hannes mato: search for names of values/types/modules? or type signatures?

02-11-2016 16:41 GemmaG More feedback of how/when you use it, and any problems you have/feature requests etc would be useful :)

02-11-2016 16:41 yomimono gemmag: how should folks get that feedback to you?

02-11-2016 16:41 avsm Hm, that would be useful GemmaG -- I primarily have issues with not setting it up as my OPAM switches are always out of date, so I'll give you newbie fail feedback :)

02-11-2016 16:42 GemmaG Gooood q - atm email would be great.

02-11-2016 16:42 GemmaG Working with Fred to collate it all into a workable roadmap :)

02-11-2016 16:42 mato hannes: names generally

02-11-2016 16:42 GemmaG avsm: newb feedback always welcome :p

02-11-2016 16:42 avsm Yay, glad Merlin is being given attention! I'm intending to switch to using it as soon as I sort out my OPAM2 setup

02-11-2016 16:43 yomimono too bleeding-edge for magic

02-11-2016 16:43 noddy btw (paste incoming):

02-11-2016 16:43 noddy let s:opam = $HOME . '/.opam/'

02-11-2016 16:43 noddy let s:opam_switch = system("awk '/^switch/ { print $2 }' " . s:opam . "config")

02-11-2016 16:43 noddy let s:opam_switch = substitute(s:opam_switch, '"\|\n', '', 'g')

02-11-2016 16:43 noddy let &rtp = &rtp . ',' . s:opam . s:opam_switch . '/share/merlin/vim'

02-11-2016 16:43 avsm cor that appears to be something useful

02-11-2016 16:43 noddy viml for dyna-merlin does wonders.

02-11-2016 16:44 hannes mato: maybe avsm can setup ocamloscope on the same host/with same data source, and we get search for free? https://github.com/camlspotter/ocamloscope.2

02-11-2016 16:45 avsm waiting on the new release

02-11-2016 16:45 hannes SGTM

02-11-2016 16:45 djwillia btw is there a hard date in mind for the Mirage 3 release yet?

02-11-2016 16:45 avsm i would like it to use the odig cmt database though

02-11-2016 16:46 noddy i would like to push the shedding of some bikes on the agenda.

02-11-2016 16:46 noddy ... and it's about the c stubs, again.

02-11-2016 16:46 yomimono djwillia: what a coincidence, we have an item on the agenda called "release schedule"

02-11-2016 16:46 yomimono ...and since the c stubs (as they relate to coinstallability) are a blocker, maybe noddy should get priority

02-11-2016 16:46 djwillia i don't see amir here, but I've been working with him to get the right IBM people to be able to make a quote about the release

02-11-2016 16:47 djwillia it looks like we'll be able to have someone pretty high up say "MirageOS is cool"

02-11-2016 16:47 djwillia or something along those lines

02-11-2016 16:47 avsm yep, I've been in the loop on that as well. That's awesome!

02-11-2016 16:47 avsm noddy: we've got 12 minutes left. are you typing? :-)

02-11-2016 16:48 gemma_ That's great!

02-11-2016 16:48 noddy aha, so. we seem to be commited to building multi-platform stubs. because stubs are part of the language, and supporting them is right and proper.

02-11-2016 16:48 noddy now there is some automation for building them, but our api for using that is a bit crufty

02-11-2016 16:48 avsm was hoping some ctypes magic glue would help fix that

02-11-2016 16:48 noddy it's a bit of a bikeshed as i'd like to move one way of stuffing extra info into META for mirage to use to another way of stuffing that info there for that to use

02-11-2016 16:49 noddy this is more general, gobs of libs don't use ctypes

02-11-2016 16:49 yomimono rereads sentence

02-11-2016 16:49 yomimono rereads sentence again

02-11-2016 16:49 yomimono ...go on

02-11-2016 16:49 noddy META: xen_linkopts = "-lnocrypto_stubs+mirage-xen"

02-11-2016 16:50 noddy i'd like to fix the tool and change these lines to something like "native_archive(runtime) = archive-name"

02-11-2016 16:50 noddy first, to separate the flags and their syntax from the pure information

02-11-2016 16:50 noddy second, because it links up with predicates in ocamlfind and looks bit less gross

02-11-2016 16:50 noddy but it's a bikeshed as it doesn't change stuff fundamentally

02-11-2016 16:50 noddy it is and api, however.

02-11-2016 16:50 noddy so um. show of hands?

02-11-2016 16:51 avsm i think having a consistent naming convention for replacing "xen/solo5/unix" in the stubs would be useful

02-11-2016 16:51 avsm and your new format fits that

02-11-2016 16:51 hannes noddy: I like your colour of the bikeshed

02-11-2016 16:51 mort___ what will the example you just gave look like in the new world, concretely?

02-11-2016 16:51 mort___ (it sounds like a good idea though)

02-11-2016 16:51 noddy mort___: "native_archive(runtime) = archive-name"

02-11-2016 16:51 avsm the litmus test is: if we add a new (say openbsd/vmm) backend, does this require going back and changing any META files, or just altering the mirage tool?

02-11-2016 16:51 hannes this "native" confuses me tbh

02-11-2016 16:52 mort___ so, "native_archive(xen) = nocrypto_stubs" ?

02-11-2016 16:52 avsm hannes: native is ocamlfind-speak for ocamlopt

02-11-2016 16:52 mort___ or something else?

02-11-2016 16:52 noddy hannes: it's different from the ocalm system backing that mirage runtime; this is related to how to compile pure c code and the ocaml runtime it's related to

02-11-2016 16:52 noddy mort___: native_archive(xen-runtime) = nocrypto_stubs+mirage-xen

02-11-2016 16:53 noddy avsm: it requires changing ALL META files ever.

02-11-2016 16:53 avsm but why do we have to enumerate every backend in the META file?

02-11-2016 16:53 djwillia (sorry guys i have to run, but good to see you all and i'll be looking for the rest of the transcript later!)

02-11-2016 16:53 avsm djwillia: see you later!

02-11-2016 16:53 yomimono thanks for joining us djwillia :)

02-11-2016 16:53 noddy avsm: if we don't, we have a hard dep on an unproven convention. it's easier to commit to a naming convention for these libraries and just compute that in the tool.

02-11-2016 16:53 mato avsm: if that backend was done via solo5 then it'd not necessarily mean a new backend

02-11-2016 16:53 avsm why not native_mirage = nocrypto_mirage_stubs

02-11-2016 16:53 noddy IF people are cool with that.

02-11-2016 16:53 avsm well yeah, I guess META can be generated in the topkg world

02-11-2016 16:54 noddy in that world, you write META by hand

02-11-2016 16:54 avsm currently, but not forever

02-11-2016 16:54 noddy actually, should we just drop that and adopt a convetion for naming?

02-11-2016 16:54 hannes noddy: I struggle that you want to go through 10000 libaries and fix all the META

02-11-2016 16:54 avsm I prefer a convention for naming, enforced by the build rules

02-11-2016 16:54 noddy hannes: you can add dual-logic to the tool. plus, not that many mirage-ready libs out there.

02-11-2016 16:55 noddy avsm: then we get to drop META lines, but every package with c stubs that runs on mirage needs to have lib<package>+<target>.a

02-11-2016 16:55 noddy that's totally doable, the logic can live completely in, say, stubblr. but it couples stuff.

02-11-2016 16:55 avsm yeah I prefer that model so we can ensure that the C code we are using is compiled correctly

02-11-2016 16:55 avsm I worry quite a bit that we link in incorrect ABIs that work by accident

02-11-2016 16:56 avsm we can relax the coupling at a future stage once this works for our existing C code (like tcpip checksums and so on)

02-11-2016 16:56 hannes noddy: I guess that's true... dual-logic is sth I'd avoid, but the number of mirage-ready C-dependent libs is pretty small, thus we can fix all of them easily

02-11-2016 16:56 avsm yes agreed hannes

02-11-2016 16:56 noddy so.... kill META lines, freeze a stub naming convention in the tool?

02-11-2016 16:56 avsm lets fix the 10 we have first, then move onto to the rest of the opam universe :)

02-11-2016 16:56 avsm yes, i think that would be a good start

02-11-2016 16:56 noddy no there's very few of these out there, really

02-11-2016 16:57 noddy a grep will unearth them

02-11-2016 16:57 avsm where the naming convention is parameterised by the backend being compiled for

02-11-2016 16:57 hannes dual-logic is the new backwards compatibility... a sign that people are too lazy to fix reverse dependencies...

02-11-2016 16:57 avsm yeah

02-11-2016 16:57 noddy avsm: libnocrypto_stubs+mirage-xen.a etc

02-11-2016 16:57 avsm ok, lets shift this to email. time's running out and there still gemma_'s agenda item

02-11-2016 16:57 yomimono +1

02-11-2016 16:57 yomimono noddy: can you mail mirageos-devel about this?

02-11-2016 16:58 avsm but thanks noddy -- i think this isnt bikeshedding and really important to get right

02-11-2016 16:58 noddy it's a long-term api being baked here.... :(

02-11-2016 16:58 hannes I added this release schedule item... can we briefly get an idea when people think a release will be there? this month? next?

02-11-2016 16:58 noddy yomimono: y will

02-11-2016 16:58 noddy next friday

02-11-2016 16:59 avsm re: the feedback post, gemma_ noted in http://reynard.io/2016/11/01/MirageOSFeedback.html that she only got 11 replies

02-11-2016 16:59 avsm which is fewer than most attendance at hack events :-)

02-11-2016 16:59 gemma_ Now it's 14 😁

02-11-2016 16:59 avsm progress!

02-11-2016 16:59 avsm do prod people to fill it in, would be good to understand how we can improve things

02-11-2016 17:00 avsm I notice it's very difficult to get any useful feedback about docs.mirage.io as well -- i have to go around asking people individually to get anyone to respond

02-11-2016 17:00 gemma_ Yes there's some great feedback so far, and more is certainly appreciated

02-11-2016 17:00 avsm (but when people answer its very useful!)

02-11-2016 17:00 yomimono hannes: I want to cut a beta as soon as we're done making major API changes

02-11-2016 17:00 yomimono hannes: but I just submitted PRs for a major API change this morning, and that's an attempt to get ready for major API changes I have yet to make re: errors

02-11-2016 17:01 hannes yomimono: I see you got some PRs just a few minutes before the meeting..

02-11-2016 17:01 yomimono hannes: yes indeed

02-11-2016 17:01 mato yomimono: random q, i saw in that PR that you touched some ipv6 bits, so do we actually have working ipv6?

02-11-2016 17:01 hannes uhh, and Canopy uses logs now \o/

02-11-2016 17:01 avsm high level release schedule: beta as soon as code settles, nov/dec to let beta settle and iterate on docs, nov/dec for self-hosting rollout, jan for stable release when its ready

02-11-2016 17:01 avsm mato: we have a full ipv6 stack, but no configuration :-)

02-11-2016 17:01 yomimono avsm: thanks, was just trying to type too much at once :)

02-11-2016 17:01 yomimono mato: (or automated tests for it afaik)

02-11-2016 17:02 mato avsm: ah. do we have at least a semi-working example? i can try and test it (have dual stack here)

02-11-2016 17:02 yomimono mato: there's a ping6 example in mirage-skeleton

02-11-2016 17:02 avsm mato: in mirage-skeleton, but no tcp yet i think

02-11-2016 17:02 yomimono that might get you started

02-11-2016 17:02 hannes avsm: the correct answer is: we have sth which (maybe?) interoperates with other IPv6 systems in unknown state. nojb was the only user (on unix afaik, no Xen)..

02-11-2016 17:03 yomimono mato: if you can tell me more about what you want for testing, I can try to get you something minimal

02-11-2016 17:04 avsm hannes: yeah, code quality is high, but we obviously need to deploy it

02-11-2016 17:04 hannes avsm: I'm not even sure which parts of IPv6 are there...

02-11-2016 17:04 mato yomimono: say a unikernel that does SLAAC (not DHCP) and serves something on TCP

02-11-2016 17:05 avsm i gotta run, AOB?

02-11-2016 17:05 noddy afk \o_ \O/

02-11-2016 17:05 avsm otherwise poor engil is asleep, so I shall commit the meeting logs!